tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post1454358484518760757..comments2023-09-25T04:24:45.407-05:00Comments on The M Blog: CPM concepts revisitedJ. Guy Musehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-86008725836614512002007-12-07T10:36:00.000-05:002007-12-07T10:36:00.000-05:00Chris Leake,Sorry for the mix-up! You'd be welcome...Chris Leake,<BR/><BR/>Sorry for the mix-up! You'd be welcome to come to Ecuador as well, though!J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-77652032972243762082007-12-07T09:37:00.000-05:002007-12-07T09:37:00.000-05:00Sorry, different Chris. I'm Chris Leake from Mexi...Sorry, different Chris. I'm Chris Leake from Mexico.Chris Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14884178062969205030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-42988018855632181322007-12-07T08:29:00.000-05:002007-12-07T08:29:00.000-05:00Chris,Welcome back to Ecuador (I assume you made i...Chris,<BR/><BR/>Welcome back to Ecuador (I assume you made it back!) Yes, David's website has a lot of helpful stuff.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-29859104340349539302007-12-05T21:51:00.000-05:002007-12-05T21:51:00.000-05:00Hey Guy,What you describe, about focusing more on ...Hey Guy,<BR/>What you describe, about focusing more on making disciples than on planting churches, is much the same as what we've been sensing lately. Good to know there are others in the same boat. Thanks for pointing us to David's blog. I hadn't seen it before, and it's good stuff. God bless!<BR/>ChrisChris Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14884178062969205030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-89106122101711814242007-11-30T09:27:00.000-05:002007-11-30T09:27:00.000-05:00Ross,Good to hear from you again. Thanks for the k...Ross,<BR/><BR/>Good to hear from you again. Thanks for the kind words.<BR/><BR/>I too was encouraged by the article and that's why I posted it on the blog. We have felt this is the direction we must focus on if we are ever to see a cpm in our midst. I just hope we have the long-term patience to hold out till we begin to see the anticipated growth and fruit from our labors.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-44701018069508681562007-11-30T04:37:00.000-05:002007-11-30T04:37:00.000-05:00Hello GuyI found myself blogging today for the fir...Hello Guy<BR/><BR/>I found myself blogging today for the first time in six months! I remain inspired by your work and what you have quoted here from David Watson.<BR/><BR/>I am still involved in Kingdom ministry and am at present trying to lead my church forward into a closer walk with the Father which will include receiving and using the spiritual gifts. Much of the past year has been taken up with intensive leadership training / disciple making. As mentioned in your post this does not at the moment look like much fruit, but the tree is now considerably more healthy and the fruit will come soon.<BR/><BR/>I am hopeful that this coming time of renewal will raise up some folk who want to be involved in church planting along the lines that you are talking about.Ross Garnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18304125499006228235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-75110661431470661152007-11-26T12:20:00.000-05:002007-11-26T12:20:00.000-05:00Guy,Thanks for the feedback. I'll let you know if...Guy,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the feedback. I'll let you know if I have more questions. This information is great to have for our upcoming meeting.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>-Paul WatsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-43879070263140990292007-11-26T09:19:00.000-05:002007-11-26T09:19:00.000-05:00Bryan,We are the ones who have made things so comp...Bryan,<BR/><BR/>We are the ones who have made things so complicated. I don't know if it is just our culture, or our degree of education, or what. But something in us wants everybody to know everything that we know, right now! Those who conform to our understanding of the Gospel, pass. Those who do not, fail.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-4309852309146550702007-11-26T09:17:00.000-05:002007-11-26T09:17:00.000-05:00Paul,What do we do with leaders who do not practic...Paul,<BR/><BR/><I>What do we do with leaders who do not practice what they learn? </I>Usually nothing. We focus on those who are responding and give them the time, not the ones who do not practice what they have been taught.<BR/><BR/><I>Do you find that most of your leaders come out of a church culture?</I> Yes. Most coming for training come to us out of an existing church culture. That is what makes it hard! You mention a deconstruction guide through Scripture. That would be great to have! I confess, we used to spend a lot more time on deconstruction issues, but have backed off in the past couple of years in that too many were simply turned off and would leave without ever doing anything. We figure some kind of church is better than NO church at all.<BR/><BR/><I>About how long do you work with a brand new believer before you release them to plant churches?</I> They are free to plant churches as soon as they would like. We do not put a time frame on anybody. Yesterday, for example, a woman who has been a believer about one year, was assuring me she is praying hard to begin a new work in her community and asked me to pray with her. She seemed embarrassed that it is taking so long.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-73907623856551494602007-11-25T20:25:00.000-05:002007-11-25T20:25:00.000-05:00Isn't it fanstastic how Jesus' commands and encour...Isn't it fanstastic how Jesus' commands and encouragements really work? :) Wow, make disciples.... what a concept. :) Good stuff, Guy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-17387165330365226172007-11-25T19:19:00.000-05:002007-11-25T19:19:00.000-05:00Guy,I've been stalking your blog for a couple of y...Guy,<BR/><BR/>I've been stalking your blog for a couple of years. I enjoy reading your posts and praying for you and your family.<BR/><BR/>I have some additional questions. Be forewarned - I could ask questions all day long, so stop me when you get tired. :)<BR/><BR/>What do you do with leaders who do not practice what they learn?<BR/><BR/>Do you find that most of your leaders come out of a church culture? Are there people in your area who have never been exposed to church - whether Protestant or Catholic? Do you have to deconstruct the idea/concept of church with your leaders before you train them to plant churches? Would a deconstruction guide - through Scripture - be beneficial to people working in areas similar to yours? Have you/are you doing this already?<BR/><BR/>About how long do you work with a brand new believer before you release them to plant churches?<BR/><BR/>Thanks, Guy, for your input. I really appreciate it.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>-Paul WatsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-27594401621105457332007-11-25T16:24:00.000-05:002007-11-25T16:24:00.000-05:00Paul,What an honor to have you visit our little bl...Paul,<BR/><BR/>What an honor to have you visit our little blog! I can't speak for Jim in Central America, but what we use here is what we call our "Ruta Discipular" (Discipleship Route). There are actually TWO routes. One for new believers and another geared more towards leadership training intended for church planters. As I mentioned before these have continuously been evolving over the years to meet the needs as we see and understand them.<BR/><BR/>The "tough spots" in leadership development tend to be that those who are trained do not put into practice what they have received. The distractions of everyday life tend to overwhelm their call to serve the Lord. I don't mean to sound critical. Most of the people we work with live with problems and circumstances I have never had to face.<BR/><BR/>Another reason leaders drop out is because the churches they come out of are not in favor of the kind of church planting/ministry we seek to instill. Most churches want to see their own church grow larger; but are not interested in seeing new works planted. Those that seek to start new works are quickly brought back into line by telling them their "first loyalty" is to their home church.<BR/><BR/>I could go on and on, but that is a quick intro to some of our local issues over the past 7 years of walking these trails.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-6967583543499213352007-11-25T10:40:00.000-05:002007-11-25T10:40:00.000-05:00Guy and Jim,I'm enjoying the conversation. I woul...Guy and Jim,<BR/><BR/>I'm enjoying the conversation. I would like to know a couple of things: How are you training leaders? What materials are you using?<BR/><BR/>David Watson, myself, and some other church planters are currently working on several Scripture-Only discovery guides for training church planters, every member discipleship, and leadership development. I am interested in what you are using as well as pros, cons, and what areas of leadership development you deal with most frequently. What are the tough spots in leadership development? Why are key leaders dropping out? Etc.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>Paul WatsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-6743689370204909832007-11-25T08:13:00.000-05:002007-11-25T08:13:00.000-05:00Jim,Excellent insights. I know what you mean about...Jim,<BR/><BR/>Excellent insights. I know what you mean about the frustrating part of training so many and yet so few following through. Our primary focus has also been training. What I feel need to go hand-in-hand are prayer and training; training and prayer. I think it was Wesley who said, <I>God never does anything except in response to prayer.</I> <BR/><BR/>Our training and materials are constantly evolving and adapting. But I agree with you, the more people we train, the more churches get planted. I have often said, I could go out and maybe plant 1-2 new churches per year, but would rather invest my time into training 50-100 others so that there might be 50-100 new churches planted.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-33187209556413964112007-11-25T01:05:00.000-05:002007-11-25T01:05:00.000-05:00Guy and Bill, I have always said that CPMs where d...Guy and Bill, <BR/>I have always said that CPMs where descriptive not prescriptive. We can’t take someone else’s strategy and duplicate it in our situation with much success. However, CPM methodologies are different. Yes, there is much discussion about CPM methodologies. But we must all agree that the number one methodology is what Watson is pointing out, leadership training. When we began targeting a unevangelized people group eight years ago, we developed several strategies to the best of our ability. Once we got started we quickly realized that nothing would be as important as training leaders. So, we shifted gears and put all of our eggs in one basket, leadership training. For eight years 100 % of our financial resources and 50% of our time has been dedicated to leadership training. It has been frustrating. We have lost what we thought were good potential leaders. We have struggled with doctrinal issues. We have struggled with issues of practice. We have started over several times on training materials. Yet, the more we train, the more churches are planted. Isn’t it amazing that Jesus never said “go plant churches”, instead he said, “go make disciples.” Why has it been so hard for us “church planters” to figure that out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-54193353033449090862007-11-24T17:15:00.000-05:002007-11-24T17:15:00.000-05:00Bill,There continues to be a huge ongoing discussi...Bill,<BR/><BR/>There continues to be a huge ongoing discussion centering around the pros and cons of cpm methodology, especially amongst SBC missionaries, since CPM is the basic church planting methodology that most of us are working with around the world. <BR/><BR/>While a majority of us embrace the concepts, there are plenty of others who honestly question them. <BR/><BR/>Recently in the Spring 2007 "Journal of Evangelism and Missions" (MABTS), the entire issue was dedicated to CPM issues. The most controversial article in there is one by Jeff Brawner <A HREF="http://www.mabts.edu/clientimages/23267/journal/spring07journal.pdf" REL="nofollow"><BR/>An Examination of Nine Key Issues Concerning CPM</A>. IMB M bloggers like <A HREF="http://rtbm.typepad.com" REL="nofollow">Ken Sorrell</A> have done an excellent job debating the authors widely held views. Ken in particular has taken it to task to address each of Brawner's 9 issues. These have likewise been debated extensively over at the <A HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/churchplantingforum/" REL="nofollow">Church Planting Forum</A> (you're welcome to check it out and join if interested.)<BR/><BR/>All of this to say, anytime you get a handful of church planting missionaries together for more than 10 minutes CPM will come up. Some will be all for it, and others will be shaking their heads.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-6803982247475677572007-11-24T16:28:00.000-05:002007-11-24T16:28:00.000-05:00Guy,Normally, I struggle with a lot of the discuss...Guy,<BR/><BR/>Normally, I struggle with a lot of the discussion centered around the CPM concept, because it's usually couched in terms of "how can we make this happen in our area?" I like the final sentence in Watson's quote: "CPM is a result, not a cause." I would describe it as a phenomenon of the Holy Spirit more than the right mix of human effort and leadership training. Sometimes God just shows up and does things no one else could have expected!<BR/><BR/>So I'm a little concerned that dedicated missionaries like yourself are expected to embrace, for lack of a better term, "the CPM vision;" and I'm also fearful of the discouragement factor that can set in when you do everything "by the book" and you don't see the results you hope for.<BR/><BR/>Watson's confession, "My mission was ready to discipline me for failure to do my job," sends cold chills up my spine. And they would have if things had not begun exploding around him. I have lived in such fear myself for failure to produce, to show value for money invested (in my salary, benefits, etc).<BR/><BR/>Thanks for sharing this! I have never read Watson before, but he sounds like someone I would love to spend the afternoon with.<BR/><BR/>Bill Lollar<BR/><A HREF="http://thin-edge.org" REL="nofollow">The Thin Edge of the Wedge</A>Bill Lollarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05742117815043529135noreply@blogger.com