tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post3997010621381648218..comments2023-09-25T04:24:45.407-05:00Comments on The M Blog: Women shepherdsJ. Guy Musehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comBlogger112125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-48784227157465719752013-04-02T11:27:21.876-05:002013-04-02T11:27:21.876-05:00Forhim922,
Thanks for stopping by and taking the ...Forhim922,<br /><br />Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to read, not only the blog post, but the above comments as well. You are a real trooper! It is interesting to me how this subject continues to maintain a high level of interest amongst Christians of all stripes and colors. For a more in depth treatment I would highly recommend our friend Felicity Dale's blog <a href="http://simplychurch.com/" rel="nofollow">Simply Church: A House Church Perspective</a>. There you will find a gold mine of insights on this subject.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-88568881096239148192013-04-02T09:23:20.459-05:002013-04-02T09:23:20.459-05:00My wife and I have been discussing this topic for ...My wife and I have been discussing this topic for years. Off and on I have done my own reading and resaearching and what not. For me where I have come to is that one of the biggest problems for the western church is that we are so set in how we do church that we are unable to truly see how church should be done. For example, we are set on the fact that we must have a Senior Pastor to function of do anything. The fact of the matter is that we don't. This is kind of like the Israelites saying that they needed a King when God knew that they did not need one.<br /><br />I know that as a church planter I was faced with dealing with ideas of how to structure a church from the beginning and what I realized is that it was probably going to look a lot different than most of the churches I had been a part of.<br /><br />I enjoyed reading the discussions and I learned even more about this subject. Thanks.Forhim922https://www.blogger.com/profile/01816766728358806324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-76807824952018837242011-10-21T00:11:35.609-05:002011-10-21T00:11:35.609-05:00The article has really peaks my interest. I am goi...The article has really peaks my interest. I am going to bookmark your web site and hold checking for brand new information.<br /><br /><a href="http://cyberchurchtoday.com/" rel="nofollow">Internet churches</a>Bishop bernard jordanhttp://cyberchurchtoday.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-84702962451476719742011-03-02T22:09:08.912-05:002011-03-02T22:09:08.912-05:00Greetings to you, brother Guy. I was surprised to ...Greetings to you, brother Guy. I was surprised to see new comments in my email inbox on this old post. I skimmed all the comments to remember what we discussed. Very interesting and edifying! Blessings to you in 2011.<br /><br />Grace & peace.<br />-markMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03804449981035596066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-87202181436753394342011-03-02T20:36:40.145-05:002011-03-02T20:36:40.145-05:00Bruce,
This post generated more comments than any...Bruce,<br /><br />This post generated more comments than any other I have ever posted. There is a lot I could say about this subject, but locally the whole "women in ministry" thing has never been that big of a deal. Since we do not use ministry titles, and refer to one another as "hermano" or "hermana" there hasn't been much reason to squabble! One of the aspects we have long emphasized is that we are ALL servant leaders. What differentiates us is gifting, but not gender. Since we don't have pastors as such, we don't have to get into all the sticky stuff that seems to be an issue with folks north of us there in the USA. Anyway, thanks for stopping by and reading and for the comment!J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-14035471606754458302011-03-02T16:56:16.879-05:002011-03-02T16:56:16.879-05:00Ha ha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who&#...Ha ha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's be way-layed by this topic. I went to Korea in 1988 to Cho's church. It was around 700,000 at the time, tons of cell groups. 65% were led by women, I was quite surprised.<br /><br />His mother in law was his right hand man, or maybe it was the other way around. As old as this tread is, it may be closed and that is fine.<br /><br />I was surprised to find the long list of simple and organic church folks in favor of full-blown rights to women in ministry, here is a partial list: Frank Viola, Alan Hirsch, Felicity Dale, and Jon Zens. It was noticeable that they ignored passages by talking really really loud, citing every passage of scripture that had a woman's name attached to it, and using an avalanche of rhetoric to silence any critic. (squeak) This will be the last time I mention this in public. <br /><br />Guy, I'm glad you brought it up. I know Jesus would have no problem embracing the subject. Paul, well, he's just so out of date we should probably burn all the new testament he wrote and be happy with what is left. (tongue bitten and in my cheek)<br /><br />Cheers one and all. I know of no more fulfilled woman in the church than my wife and she has never aspired to apostlehood, elderhood, or shepherding, but she does a ton of ministry every day, week and month of every year since we married 38 years ago. Go baby go!<br /><br />BruceBruce Dickeyhttp://brucedickey.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-62096435486103656952007-12-21T15:17:00.000-05:002007-12-21T15:17:00.000-05:00Guy, Muchisimas Gracias! Espero que tu familia ten...Guy, <BR/><BR/>Muchisimas Gracias! Espero que tu familia tenga la mejor Navidad este año que han tenido hasta hoy en dia. <BR/><BR/>Merry Christmas to everyone else!Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11481531969528216798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-84561293381846582142007-12-21T12:27:00.000-05:002007-12-21T12:27:00.000-05:00Everyone,I am getting ready to walk out the door a...Everyone,<BR/>I am getting ready to walk out the door and I meant to say exactly what Guy said, this time of the year we must rejoice in the fact that God condescended to become one of us in order to save us. I hope everyone can share in the celebration of Christ's birth with joy and people they love.<BR/>Merry Christmas<BR/>AlanAlanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152987444260369287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-31153475231025553402007-12-21T10:31:00.000-05:002007-12-21T10:31:00.000-05:00Cheryl, Billy, Steve, Alan, Mark,May I interrupt t...Cheryl, Billy, Steve, Alan, Mark,<BR/><BR/>May I interrupt this dialog long enough to say FELIZ NAVIDAD A TODOS USTEDES (Merry Christmas to all of you!)<BR/><BR/>Thanks to each of you for the effort and time put into this discussion. I think we can all learn something from each other. I appreciate the graciousness exemplified by each of you.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-40453586622464917162007-12-21T09:36:00.000-05:002007-12-21T09:36:00.000-05:00Alan,Thanks for commenting. I mention my DVD when...Alan,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for commenting. I mention my DVD whenever I need to let people know the information is there and I do not have the time to write it out in full here. <BR/><BR/>Regarding 1 Timothy 3:1, you are right in that I gave the wrong word. I was so busy yesterday I gave it off the cuff and the Greek word is "tis" not anthropos. I did not make this mistake in the DVD :)<BR/>However my point was that the inspired word was not "aner" clearly saying that only males may aspire to overseer. Regarding verse 2 that is another story and I wasn't discussing that. My main focus is not on whether a woman can be an elder but on 1 Timothy 2:12 on whether she can teach men. Don't worry, this is what you would have to refute so you would actually have to work to get your money back :) It is not easy and this is why the Pastors who have seen the material have said it was well done and have not been able to refute it.<BR/><BR/>Regarding God commanding Abraham to obey Sarah, you misrepresented me. I did not say that one should use this to claim to say that men are to obey their wives. I said that this would be a wrong thing to do in the same way that using the example of Sarah obeying Abraham would be wrong in claiming that God <B>commands</B> women to obey their husband. I asked for a verse that said that God commands this and none was provided. It isn't in the bible.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the "genitive plural" for "submit" I copied this as it was. I'll have to look to see if I missed copying something and right now I don't have time as I am heading off for vacation. In any respect, I have checked again and you are right in that it is nominative plural. Again that mistake is not in the DVD :)<BR/><BR/>Your hermeneutics are faulty in saying that Ephesians 5:22-24 tells a husband to take authority over a wife. It does not. It says that the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. You are reading "taking authority over" into the passage. Christ certainly has authority over the church but he has so because he is God. The husband is never told to take "authority over" his wife. You cannot arbitrarily take "headship" and make it rulership. God the Father does not rule over the Son even though he is the head of the Son. The Son does voluntarily submit to the Father in the incarnation. To make "headship" to be rulership is to distort the Trinity.<BR/><BR/>Again, I apologize for my rush. I would ask you to have another look at the other things I said.<BR/><BR/>Have a blessed Christmas and now I am off.Cheryl Schatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319009906205048912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-59940635938272886132007-12-21T03:50:00.000-05:002007-12-21T03:50:00.000-05:00Wow, seems like I take a couple of days off and th...Wow, seems like I take a couple of days off and this topic explodes. <BR/><BR/>I want to address a couple of things I noticed as I read the entire thread tonight. First, Cheryl, you seem to be coming across as more of a salesperson than I believe you intend. You do mention buying your dvd too often. I also agree with Mark, I think your teaching is a false teaching and do not intend to help fund that.<BR/><BR/>You said that pastors have watched your dvd and not one can refute your exegesis. I can do so on just what you have published on this post but I am sure you will still not see it and would not consider it valid so I would not get my money back and you could still claim to being "unrefuted."<BR/><BR/>CS:)As far as I Timothy 3:1 the inspired word is not "aner" but "anthropos".<BR/><BR/>Wrong, neither word is in that verse, there is the word “andra” in verse 2 which is the accusative, singular, masculine of the noun “aner,” you know the meaning of this word I am sure, it means husband.<BR/><BR/>CS:)God commanded Abraham to obey Sarah but we certainly are not going to use that fact to command all men to obey their wives.<BR/><BR/>In a particular situation, this is bad hermeneutics to claim an analogy with Sarah obeying Abraham.<BR/><BR/>CS:) There is no word “submit” in Ephesians 5:22 or 24. The word is found only in verse 21 where the form is “genitive plural from G243 reduplicated”<BR/><BR/>Wrong, it is in the nominative.<BR/><BR/>CS:) You have misquoted scripture. Ephesians 5:22-24 in no way tells a husband to take authority over his wife.<BR/><BR/>Yes it does, it says the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. This analogy could not be clearer, unless you want to deny Christ’s authority over the church.<BR/><BR/>In Christ<BR/>AlanAlanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152987444260369287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-57070960799167779752007-12-21T01:31:00.000-05:002007-12-21T01:31:00.000-05:00That is fine. I would expect that if you think it...That is fine. I would expect that if you think it is just "explaining away" clear scripture then you would have an easy time refuting it. I didn't think you could but I guess we will never know will we?<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your words of honor. Working with the Jehovah's Witnesses is my life work. If you need resources to help with witnessing to the JW's, the DVDs The Witness at Your Door, The Witness Goes Out and Jehovah's Witnesses and the Real Jesus have brought many, many Jehovah's Witnesses free in Christ.<BR/><BR/>I am at your service.<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>CherylCheryl Schatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319009906205048912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-45338853412011008972007-12-21T01:27:00.000-05:002007-12-21T01:27:00.000-05:00Cheryl,I appreciate you admitting you are wrong, b...Cheryl,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate you admitting you are wrong, but I'm not going to buy your DVD at this time. You have shared enough in the last couple of days to lead me to believe that your DVD is nothing more than explaining away clear scripture. <BR/> <BR/>On the other hand I too honor you for your ministry to the JW's which I do not believe contradicts any scripture!Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11481531969528216798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-76165454631268778012007-12-21T01:25:00.000-05:002007-12-21T01:25:00.000-05:00It is the best source that I have found to show th...It is the best source that I have found to show the nuances of the grammar. It is an absolutely wonderful source. I do use the Greek from the NASB first of all but for the grammar I have never found anything better.<BR/><BR/>Now are you ready to give my DVD a try or have you no humility of your own?Cheryl Schatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319009906205048912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-330755192179046252007-12-21T01:21:00.000-05:002007-12-21T01:21:00.000-05:00Just want to point out that the Textus Receptus is...Just want to point out that the Textus Receptus is much older than your "best resources for checking out the inspired grammar and the inspired Greek words.".Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11481531969528216798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-74265178918597435822007-12-21T01:17:00.000-05:002007-12-21T01:17:00.000-05:00Billy,I stand corrected. Although the oldest manu...Billy,<BR/><BR/>I stand corrected. Although the <B>oldest</B> manuscripts do not have the "submit" repeated in verse 22, the one that the KJV is based on does. I had not noticed that before. <BR/><BR/>At the same time the reciprocal nature of verse 21 still stands and verse 22 refers back to verse 21 as a repeat if you take the Greek that the KJV is based on. I do not make a habit of using that Greek text as it is not the oldest and I do stand corrected that there is at least one text that has "submit" in verse 22.<BR/><BR/>Your point is made and I bow to your correction.<BR/><BR/>CherylCheryl Schatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319009906205048912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-13903981447499889762007-12-21T01:14:00.000-05:002007-12-21T01:14:00.000-05:00It wouldn't post the correct lettering in the orig...It wouldn't post the correct lettering in the original so here's a link...<BR/><BR/>http://www.afii.org/hpgbypg/gknttr.htmBillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11481531969528216798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-30662920893369102982007-12-21T01:06:00.001-05:002007-12-21T01:06:00.001-05:00BTW- its called the Textus ReceptusBTW- its called the Textus ReceptusBillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11481531969528216798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-49632782036324650392007-12-21T01:06:00.000-05:002007-12-21T01:06:00.000-05:00There is your resource.5:21 upotassomenoi allhloiV...There is your resource.<BR/><BR/>5:21 upotassomenoi allhloiV en fobw Qeou. <BR/><BR/>5:22 Ai gunaikeV, toiV idioiV andrasin upotassesqe, wV tw Kuriw.<BR/><BR/>5:23 Oti o anhr esti kefalh thV gunaikoV, wV kai o CristoV kefalh thV ekklhsiaV, kai autoV esti swthr tou swmatoV.<BR/><BR/>5:24 All wsper h ekklhsia upotassetai tw Cristw, outw kai ai gunaikeV toiV idioiV andrasin en panti.<BR/><BR/>5:25 Oi andreV agapate taV gunaikaV eautwn, kaqwV kai o CristoV hgaphse thn ekklhsian, kai eauton paredwken uper authV<BR/><BR/>5:26 ina authn agiash, kaqarisaV tw loutrw tou udatoV en rhmati,Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11481531969528216798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-61270931628898895462007-12-21T01:03:00.000-05:002007-12-21T01:03:00.000-05:00Billy,I gave you one of the best resources for che...Billy,<BR/><BR/>I gave you one of the best resources for checking out the inspired grammar and the inspired Greek/Hebrew words.<BR/><BR/>I guess you don't have a resource that has the word "submit" in Ephesians 5:21, eh? I guess you were the one doing the kidding.<BR/><BR/>No matter. I am off for Christmas. If you want to find me and discuss further, you are welcome. Go to strivetoenter.com/wim There are lots of Pastors who also stop by who will dialog with you in a respectful manner. They also have my respect.<BR/><BR/>Blessings!<BR/>CherylCheryl Schatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319009906205048912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-24425768598213904262007-12-21T00:49:00.000-05:002007-12-21T00:49:00.000-05:00that is with lots of love ofcourse!that is with lots of love ofcourse!Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11481531969528216798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-48946533524796028942007-12-21T00:48:00.000-05:002007-12-21T00:48:00.000-05:00Cheryl, 1. Do you call reading an interlinear bibl...Cheryl, <BR/><BR/>1. Do you call reading an interlinear bible Greek?<BR/><BR/>2. Do you think the "Westcott-Hort text from 1881" is the original text?<BR/><BR/>Are you kidding me?Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11481531969528216798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-22663539335620770422007-12-21T00:29:00.000-05:002007-12-21T00:29:00.000-05:00Dear Billy,Boy you are easy to entertain, aren't y...Dear Billy,<BR/><BR/>Boy you are easy to entertain, aren't you? LOL. Okay, here you go http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/eph5.pdf<BR/>(the end of the link is .pdf)<BR/><BR/>Have fun. Check it out really carefully. Now everyone can see for themselves. Humor is wonderful and God-given but we should also take the scriptures seriously.<BR/><BR/>It is important especially for Pastors and those in spiritual leadership to use these kinds of biblical helps as it gives a greater depth to your biblical understanding. Compliments of my bible translator friend. The site is free and the grammar and helps are awesome. Enjoy!<BR/><BR/>Oh and Billy, I will be waiting for you to produce a copy of the Greek that has "submit" in Ephesians 5:22. There is none. And the "submit" in verse 24 is concerning Christ. The reference to wives goes right back to Ephesians 5:21. Don't worry, my friend. I won't be holding my breath waiting for a Greek reference from you for Ephesians 5:22 because I already know the answer. You have to go back to verse 21 to get it.<BR/><BR/>Smiles!<BR/>CherylCheryl Schatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319009906205048912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-61750330453336892802007-12-21T00:24:00.000-05:002007-12-21T00:24:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Cheryl Schatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319009906205048912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-21275440623771164462007-12-21T00:07:00.000-05:002007-12-21T00:07:00.000-05:00LOL- Before I read this post I was going to tell y...LOL- Before I read this post I was going to tell you there was nothing fun about the subject. This is hilarious!<BR/><BR/>If I were you, I would get a better copy of the original.Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11481531969528216798noreply@blogger.com