tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post4591400786451310477..comments2023-09-25T04:24:45.407-05:00Comments on The M Blog: Why are we so afraid of NT house churches?J. Guy Musehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-3372157293753697622009-06-18T08:38:21.767-05:002009-06-18T08:38:21.767-05:00incabrain,
LOL! I love it! Thanks for sharing the...incabrain,<br /><br />LOL! I love it! Thanks for sharing these concerns. I guess the next step would be to share these observations with the church in question for their consideration.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-58883204777895810152009-06-18T00:30:18.163-05:002009-06-18T00:30:18.163-05:00I see issues:
1) Plastic chairs are dangerous, th...I see issues:<br /><br />1) Plastic chairs are dangerous, they are weak and can break unexpectedly. I see a potential law suit.<br /><br />2) Were the Xerox (tm) copies licensed appropriately through CCLI? Did the church file for a CCLI number?... Read More<br /><br />3) Sharing of testimonies is great, but were they vetted? What happens when the "unstable" lady starts talking?<br /><br />4) Did the kids understand participatory induction? Can you really hold their attention with the newspaper?<br /><br />5) Okay, actually this part was Kool. Wine might lead to sharing.<br /><br />6) Wow, that's a lot of attention for the new person. What if their heart was irrevocably hardened by being made the focus?<br /><br />7) Tsk, Tsk, tsk... shomeonesh not ti-thing!<br /><br />8) I don't know what an evangecube is, but with a name like that, can $5 buy one?<br /><br />9) Uh, like, where do I begin? A) Tuna fish can have a seriously offensive smell. 2) Sharing glasses? (hold on, I think I just threw up a little)<br /><br />10) Clean up, good.<br /><br />11) 9pm? Folks missed The Amazing Race!?incabrainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784544755722872350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-8983352566608178542009-06-17T06:59:22.052-05:002009-06-17T06:59:22.052-05:00The Most Holy Right Reverend,
Father, Superior, Br...The Most Holy Right Reverend,<br />Father, Superior, Brother Amos,<br /><br />Wow, I love your title! :)<br /><br />One of the truths that has brought us much relief is to understand that if we will be obedient and make disciples of the nations; He will do his part and "build his church."<br /><br />We were never asked to plant churches, only to be faithful to make disciples. If we will do our part, He will do his.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-9360038344985914702009-06-16T17:45:10.598-05:002009-06-16T17:45:10.598-05:00Guy - Always appreciate your efforts
to reply to ...Guy - Always appreciate your efforts <br />to reply to comments. Thanks.<br /><br />Fluid is good, one more.<br /><br />Let’s see.... We have -<br />The Traditional Church,<br />The Institutional Church,<br />The Religious System Church,<br />The Steeple Corporation Church,<br />The 501c3, non profit, tax deductible,<br />Religious Corporation Church,<br />The Brick and Mortar Church,<br />The Pastor Led Church,<br />The Multiple Elder Led Church,<br />The Congregational Led Church,<br />The Pope Led Church,<br />The Bishop Led Church,<br />The Chief Executive Apostle Led Church,<br />There really is a Chief Executive Apostle<br />No Kidding. Saw it with my own eyes.<br />The House Church,<br />The Simple Church,<br />The Small Group Church,<br />The Institutional Church,<br />Oh, i said that one already.<br />The Baptist Church,<br />The Lutheran Church,<br />The Evangelical Church,<br />The Charis maniacle ism Church,<br />The Penta it’s going to cost you a lot ism <br />Church,<br /><br />The First Church of <br />The Pleasant Parables <br />of The Presence of God Church, <br />and we believe<br />that Proper <br />Preparation <br />Precedes <br />Powerful <br />Performance<br />so we Pray lot.<br /><br />Yea, That’s MY Church.<br />Started by my uncle.<br />He than formed a denomination<br />and made me, his loving nephew,<br />second in command and gave me a title.<br />His Holiness, <br />The Most Holy Right Reverend,<br />Father, Superior, Brother Amos.<br /><br />Yes, My Church, <br />Oh no, <br />am I in competition with God?<br /><br /><br />I will build my church<br /><br />the Lord added to the church<br /><br />great fear came upon all the church<br /><br />great persecution against the church<br /><br />Saul, he made havock of the church, <br />entering into every house<br /><br />they assembled themselves with the church<br /><br />Herod the king stretched forth his hands <br />to vex certain of the church<br /><br />and had gathered the church together<br /><br />And being brought on their way by the church<br /><br />they were received of the church<br /><br />set them to judge who are least esteemed <br />in the church.<br /><br />If therefore the whole church <br />be come together into one place<br /><br />Christ is the head of the church<br /><br />Christ also loved the church, <br />and gave himself for it<br /><br /> feed the church of God, <br />which he hath purchased <br />with his own blood<br /><br />gave him to be the head <br />over all things to the church<br /><br />the church is subject unto Christ<br /><br />he is the head of the body, the church<br /><br />My Brain hurts....<br />God loves me and forgives me all my sin.A. Amos Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13380832298820984354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-884956490411395952009-06-16T15:41:06.430-05:002009-06-16T15:41:06.430-05:00Tim,
We should also acknowledge that God blesses ...Tim,<br /><br /><i>We should also acknowledge that God blesses many forms of church, as long as the DNA is healthy and reproducing disciples, leaders and churches.</i> Thanks for adding this important word to the conversation. You are quite right. Sometimes people get the idea that any time one is talking about simple/house churches, that automatically one is dismissing all other forms of the church. I have begun to work on a blog entitled, "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" where I hope to address this point as well.<br /><br />The truth of the matter is that we all need each other. We need to be working together. After all, we are on the same team! I remember Wolfgang Simson writing a great piece several years ago saying this exact thing.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-54908574159624242612009-06-16T15:36:45.498-05:002009-06-16T15:36:45.498-05:00Amos,
Another bunch of good observations, questio...Amos,<br /><br />Another bunch of good observations, questions, etc. Thanks for your insights.<br /><br />We had a wonderful 1Cor.14:26 time yesterday with our team. Like you say, there are few things that compare with the preciousness of these kinds of times with the Lord.<br /><br />My own take on "time limits" is roughly expressed above in my response back to Kevin. The whole "fluid church" vs. "solid church" has given me a lot to churn. Like you say, a disciple must be free to go where the Spirit leads. Jesus said GO, not plant ourselves in one spot. What the implications of this are for being the church are certainly something to ask the HS about!J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-66399743446637951312009-06-16T15:29:45.120-05:002009-06-16T15:29:45.120-05:00Kevin,
Thanks for chiming in on this one. I too h...Kevin,<br /><br />Thanks for chiming in on this one. I too have long struggled with so many of our church plants failing. On this same subject, though, I just read an interesting article by Felicity Dale <a href="http://www.simplychurch.com/2009/05/lifespan-of-simple-churches.html" rel="nofollow">Lifespan of simple churches</a> where she reports studies done showing simple churches last longer than most people imagine. <br /><br />My own way of dealing with this issue is a growing understanding that the church is not necessarily something solid or fixed (such as a brick building), rather, FLUID, like water, that can run and even penetrate into all the cracks wherever they may be found. Stagnate water dries up quickly, but running water is another story! As long as the church is "running water" she survives, albeit, her form may change many times.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-4097337001898439732009-06-16T15:29:06.094-05:002009-06-16T15:29:06.094-05:00Guy,
Thank you for the wonderful description of w...Guy,<br /><br />Thank you for the wonderful description of what the house/simple church looks like in Ecuador. <br /><br />The only thing I would add to the conversation... We should also acknowledge that God blesses many forms of church, as long as the DNA is healthy and reproducing disciples, leaders and churches. There are large church bodies around the world that God is using to multiply and expand His kingdom. They have the same healthy functions that you observe in house churches (small missional groups), but simply have a different form. Let's be careful not to lump all large churches in with traditional congregations that are no longer reproducing.Tim Pattersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10768629404208079229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-23071217700854793512009-06-16T13:34:17.672-05:002009-06-16T13:34:17.672-05:00Guy - You ask some fun questions.
“Why are we so ...Guy - You ask some fun questions.<br /><br />“Why are we so afraid of NT house churches?”<br /><br />Loved your account of your gatherings.<br />I have experienced a similar joy often.<br />The liberty is wonderful.<br /><br />“Now the Lord is that spirit and <br />where the spirit of the Lord is <br />there is liberty.”<br /><br />Most of the time <br />you have to force yourself to leave<br />because you have to get up early for work.<br />True fellowship is priceless.<br /><br />The Jesus in me likes to be with <br />the Jesus in you.<br /><br />Jesus likes himself when He meets himself.<br /><br />And truly our fellowship <br />is with the Father and the Son.<br />1John 1:3 <br /><br />Oh yea, your question.<br />Could this be one reason why some are afraid?<br /><br />Ge 3:10 And he said, <br />I heard thy voice in the garden, <br />and I was afraid, <br />because I was naked; <br />and I hid myself.<br /><br />Didn’t Adam fail to do <br />what God had asked Him?<br />And now he is afraid?<br /><br />The emperor in “The Emperor’s New Clothes” <br />wasn’t he naked? But believed he wasn’t?<br /><br />Did anyone have the courage to tell him?<br />Oh yes, a child.<br /><br />Did the emperor stop the parade<br />when the truth was known?<br /><br />The story makes a good read.<br /><br />All therefore <br />whatsoever they bid you observe, <br />that observe and do; <br />but do not ye after their works: <br />for they say, and do not.<br />Mt 23:3<br /><br />Haven’t we been asked to meet this way?<br /><br />How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, <br />every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, <br />hath a tongue, hath a revelation, <br />hath an interpretation. <br />Let all things be done unto edifying.<br />1Co 14:26 <br /><br />And when “so called leaders”<br />or “so called defenders of the faith”<br />don’t meet this way.<br />could that make them afraid?<br /><br />When they hear and know the truth<br />do they continue with the same parade?<br /><br />sorry - one more question.<br />they just keep coming...<br /><br />As far as the objection or observation<br />about the length of time<br />a group meets together; <br /><br />Is there anyplace in the Bible where: <br /><br />Time limits are put on a "disciple of Christ"<br />for how long that disciple is supposed to <br />meet with any one group?<br /><br />Time limits for a group meeting together<br />to make that group legitimate?<br /><br />Can that "disciple of Christ" <br />go where the Holy Spirit leads him?<br /><br />Yea, i know, more than one. so sorry.<br /><br />In His Service. By His Grace.A. Amos Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13380832298820984354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-61047668049640382712009-06-16T11:44:29.253-05:002009-06-16T11:44:29.253-05:00Guy,
Good question about HC. Two of the positives...Guy,<br /><br />Good question about HC. Two of the positives: greater intimacy and more personal involvement on the part of the believers. Two negatives: when the owner of the house is ill, or takes vacation (in our context down here), the church has no meeting place. Second, the survivability rate of house churches is low; only about 25% of house churches in most parts of the world continue after 2years. Of the 6 traditional churches we planted in the beginning of our ministries 20 years ago, 5 are still meeting. Of the several simple churches we planted in Lima in the past 5 years, only 3 are still meeting; but those three are struggling to stay open.<br /><br />In this case, contextualization of church does not facilitate the survivability of the HC in my part of the world.<br /><br />Thanks for a good post.<br /><br />KDSKevin, Somewhere in Southern Americahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08626012795690485950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-34502980147525080222009-06-15T21:29:30.541-05:002009-06-15T21:29:30.541-05:00Ed,
Thanks for praying. We'd love to add you ...Ed,<br /><br />Thanks for praying. We'd love to add you to our PrayerNewsletter prayer partners. If interested in getting monthly updates, click <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/muse-prayerlist/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-25988994295741047822009-06-15T19:07:44.640-05:002009-06-15T19:07:44.640-05:00Guy, I appreciate the education I'm gettin'...Guy, I appreciate the education I'm gettin' here! This is an aspect of "house church" entirely new to me....and I like it! We'll be praying for your work there.Ed Franklinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05878045658191730881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-28603881685018566782009-06-15T15:58:15.965-05:002009-06-15T15:58:15.965-05:00Ed,
As I stated to John above, over a nine year p...Ed,<br /><br />As I stated to John above, over a nine year period I have heard heresy (or call it baloney!) spoken in HC meetings, but in EVERY case it came out of the mouth of an <strong>invited guest</strong>--not from the gathered believers themselves. The natural 'checks and balances' taking place in an open gathering is powerful. <br /><br />In our own church planting, we do not "accept" believers coming from existing churches. We only work with unchurched or not-yet-believers. Any disgruntled or people who for, whatever reasons, have left their church, and want to start meeting with us, we will strongly encourage them to 1) talk with their former pastor/leader about what they plan to do, 2) encourage them to start their own HC by discipling those they win to the Lord. There are only rare exceptions to this practice. In this way we avoid what you describe happening in many house churches there in the USA.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-9787181060513895582009-06-15T15:34:09.239-05:002009-06-15T15:34:09.239-05:00Really, Guy, I have no problem with house churches...Really, Guy, I have no problem with house churches with respect to the fact that they meet in other than $25 million palaces. That part is commendable. I guess I have the same problem with them as I have with "traditional churches"...corrupted doctrine....plus the fact I have seen too many starts born out of disobedience and disputes within a local body....where the grumblers go off and "start their own church"....and, indeed, many of them are "their" church, not His church.<br /><br />I certainly agree with your sentiment that trashing the house churches because of their simplicity, lack of palatial real estate and corporate mogul pastors is reprehensible.Ed Franklinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05878045658191730881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-48945248931761628652009-06-15T11:26:12.532-05:002009-06-15T11:26:12.532-05:00Ed,
Water and soda for the Lord's Supper? :) ...Ed,<br /><br />Water and soda for the Lord's Supper? :) Well, I guess we shouldn't feel too bad about our Ritz crackers and Kool Aid!<br /><br />I think you have stated wisely about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I guess what bugs me is that too many brothers DO throw out the simple/house church "baby", rather than deal with any dirty bathwater that might be there. I do see many churches experimenting with simple/organic/house church but so far, most see it more like another church program to get people involved in <i>real</i> church. <br /><br />Thanks for the comment, and you'd be welcome to come down and join us!J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-19150259172736055752009-06-15T11:15:37.192-05:002009-06-15T11:15:37.192-05:00Alan,
Loss of income is an issue if one has alway...Alan,<br /><br />Loss of income is an issue if one has always had it coming in--like we M's have--and then suddenly it stops or slows down. But when it gets into people's heads and hearts that doing what Christ said is not about how much I will get paid, but about <i>obedience</i> and being ON MISSION with Jesus, and the joy of serving the Lord, a lot of exciting things begin to happen.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-6578156581898501482009-06-15T11:10:47.950-05:002009-06-15T11:10:47.950-05:00John,
You write, Heresy is not an issue in most s...John,<br /><br />You write, <i>Heresy is not an issue in most simple/house church sttings.</i> This has been true for us as well. Over a nine year period I <i>have</i> heard heresy (or call it baloney) spoken in HC meeings, but in EVERY case it came out of the mouth of an invited guest--not from the believers themselves. The natural 'checks and balances' taking place in an open gathering is powerful. Plus most of the teaching I have heard is more about putting into <i>practice</i> what Scripture says, rather than arguing about what it means. <br /><br />Also, I too, have given up trying to convince through words, or defend what we see happening. Any time there are questions/doubts, I respect the person and give them the benefit of their doubt. But I also invite them to come along and "see for themselves". Seeing, often, is believing!J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-39448442353387942332009-06-15T10:04:51.175-05:002009-06-15T10:04:51.175-05:00The fact that the example cited seems Biblical and...The fact that the example cited seems Biblical and thriving does not obviate the questions and comments you quoted from the other blog. Not all house churches are like your example. The Biblical call for qualified elders and proper structure is undiminished. And the fact is, many house churches lack this. And, there are those started exactly as stated in one "complaint"...by those disgruntled with and/or disobedient to the authority of their previous congregation. In small groups it's easy to start cutting corners. "Well, we don't have enough men, so we'll appoint women deacons (elders)" and so forth.<br /><br />Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, yes...but let's not deny there's some dirty bathwater.<br /><br />I'd love to be a part of the congregation you described there in Ecuador. Thank God for them!<br /><br />(As to the elements in the Lord's Supper...some of our prison congregations use water and soda crackers...all they have. God is glorified in those meetings)Ed Franklinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05878045658191730881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-54063468852321874082009-06-15T09:15:10.275-05:002009-06-15T09:15:10.275-05:00Guy,
I actually do not think many churches are as...Guy,<br /><br />I actually do not think many churches are as afraid of house church as what people would think. One thing I am happy to see around here is that more churches are canceling at least one serve a week to meet in homes. So, the concept is actually here and maybe it is better that way, to have corporate type worship and a house setting...then again maybe not. <br /><br />Which leads in to John's comment about heresy, I think it is a little to far stretched to say that there is more heresy in the pulpit as quoting a stat like that would be high unverifiable. I am aware of a church that started out as a house church that was and still is a little corrupted. I think the important point missed in this is Biblical fellowship that happens in the house church. We do not see much of this out of the majority of members in physical churches.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Michaelmichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01760452447058001899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-53283615850134374742009-06-15T09:01:20.499-05:002009-06-15T09:01:20.499-05:00Guy,
I think this kind of post is very important....Guy,<br /><br />I think this kind of post is very important. It helps alot of people see "inside" a simple church gathering.<br /><br />As has already been mentioned, I think that control is a big issue. I also think that for many pastors/elder, the loss of income is a big problem.<br /><br />-AlanAlan Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07452247058550736803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-92052514472772746172009-06-15T08:33:09.403-05:002009-06-15T08:33:09.403-05:00Guy, thanks for the post. I am past the point of ...Guy, thanks for the post. I am past the point of trying to explain it to those who don't get it. I can't. <br /><br />Instead I simply tell others who are frustrated with what is happening in traditional churches what we experience in our simple church gatherings. They are free to inquire more if they like.<br /><br />I am not part of a denomination, though some of our simple church network are affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. That probably makes it easier for me to ignore the opinion of those in the institutional church.<br /><br />As for heresy. I've heard more heresy spouted from America's pulpits than I've heard in any house or simple church setting. Why? Because the leader in a simple or house church can be challenged immediately if he is off base. In the simple/house church gatherings I've attended...teachings are participatory and if something is said that is wrong, it can be addressed, cleared up, challenged immediately. Heresy is not an issue in most simple/house church sttings.<br /><br />As for not wanting to be under leadership. There's a lot of truth to that. When you think leadership is messed up and going the wrong direction... look at the latest numbers concerning the church in America...even the Southern Baptist seem to be in decline, there's good reason to not want to be under that leadership.<br /><br />Our simple/small churches baptise and disciple more believers per year than many churches that are many times our combined numbers.<br /><br />I am not interested in following a leader who simply wants to bring in what Willow Creek or Saddleback is doing.<br /><br />John LuntAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-34078068720805962522009-06-15T07:47:32.374-05:002009-06-15T07:47:32.374-05:00Les and Goblin,
You both point out key issues of ...<strong>Les and Goblin,</strong><br /><br />You both point out key issues of wanting to maintain control.<br /><br />Several ideas we have found useful for helping tradtional churches deal with their fears over losing control:<br /><br />1) pastors and churches need to pray about having families, asking the Lord of the Harvest to send out/call laborers from within the church, <br /><br />2) as the Lord responds, the pastor and church publicly endorse and even BLESS those being sent out to start the new churches (like Paul and Barnabas in the Antioch church),<br /><br />3) start new churches ONLY with un-churched or unbelievers, NOT with other existing church members, <br /><br />4) make sure everyone understands that you aren't dividing the church, but multiplying the church by reproducing (eg. instead of one church, you are now a 5 congregation church family...some of the family meet in homes, others at the building on Main and 5th St.), <br /><br />5) have an understanding that this reproduction is "bearing children" and that all these new "kid churches" are part of the family...everyone knows "kids" do things differently from "parents", and allow them that freedom to grow and make their mistakes. In CPM language: MAWL (model, assist, watch, leave.)<br /><br />I say all this because it is too difficult to transition from traditional to a more simple/house church model. Better to start with fresh new church plants with God called laborers.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-32782293469898109912009-06-15T07:37:55.489-05:002009-06-15T07:37:55.489-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-35997314664155432792009-06-15T02:17:54.464-05:002009-06-15T02:17:54.464-05:00Guy
Thanks for this little snapshot of what appear...Guy<br />Thanks for this little snapshot of what appears to me to be a church living out exactly what is described in the NT. Now, as for the comments you listed at the start of your article, i'm afraid they would take a whole lot of explaining...<br />As has already been alluded to in other comments, the key issues as to why people object to this type of church are about leaders wanting to maintain their control and about consumerist attenders wanting to have a 'church experience' without having to engage in 'one anothering' too much.<br />House church works here in the UK. Only possible excuse for it not working in the US is Americans!<br /><br />With much love in the LordGoblinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-61795159547863405742009-06-14T22:27:09.421-05:002009-06-14T22:27:09.421-05:00Guy,
I think the reason why American pastors are...Guy, <br /><br />I think the reason why American pastors are afraid of house churches is an issue of control. They feel like they won't be able to control what goes on in house churches. <br /><br />Also, house churches are too different from our traditional church model. <br /><br />Personally, I like the concept and believe it is a more biblical church model than that which we have in America. <br /><br />LesWriterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07212653606124739664noreply@blogger.com