tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post6508953690208515231..comments2023-09-25T04:24:45.407-05:00Comments on The M Blog: Is it God's money or our money?J. Guy Musehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-3244428964612874792010-03-16T09:05:10.312-05:002010-03-16T09:05:10.312-05:00Chris,
Seems like you're one reader who "...Chris,<br /><br />Seems like you're one reader who "got the message" and are taking it for all it's worth! Yes, people, if looking for a worthy cause, just open those check books and send to the ministry of Chris Irwin! For those who can't afford a check right now, would it be all right to send our used tea bags? :)J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-18440808892729428832010-03-16T09:01:43.591-05:002010-03-16T09:01:43.591-05:00I, for one, believe that the Spirit is now encoura...I, for one, believe that the Spirit is now encouraging all believers to redirect His finances to the Irwin family serving in Spain.<br /><br />All contributions are tax deductible and receiptable.<br /><br />No dependancy issues will result and no future appeals for donations will be issued as this is only the result of the free-flowing nature of the Spirit who goes where He wills.<br /><br />So just open those checkbooks!Cristianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03971058553640696923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-84567353460980704332010-03-16T09:00:01.944-05:002010-03-16T09:00:01.944-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08508298435631835981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-27347885052494467042010-03-15T21:42:16.045-05:002010-03-15T21:42:16.045-05:00Tim,
You ask, Are you proposing that each individ...Tim,<br /><br />You ask, <i>Are you proposing that each individual Christ-follower should give more directly to a person or cause, as the Holy Spirit leads, without any accountability to a body of believers?</i><br /><br />I am just beginning to embark on this phase of a journey to better understand Kingdom finances and what the NT actually teaches. This post is a first venture into these waters. I don't have many definitive answers, and definitely more questions than answers.<br /><br />To try and answer your question though, Jesus says we are to "seek first the Kingdom of God..." If the body of believers are seeking first their own kingdom--and calling it THE KINGDOM--by retaining 90%+ on themselves and their programs, etc. then YES, for me, KINGDOM comes first.<br /><br />In an ideal world, gathered believers would equally share and talk about what Kingdom needs and issues to address, and then come to a consensus (not a vote). This is what we try to do with the network of house churches. Not all align themselves with the consensus decisions, but at least it is better than everyone doing their own thing.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-48190847193376682622010-03-15T21:33:15.289-05:002010-03-15T21:33:15.289-05:00David,
Thanks for stopping by and for the good in...David,<br /><br />Thanks for stopping by and for the good insights to a subject on the mind of many a missionary these days!<br /><br />I don't know if you have been following all the comments on the Church Planting Forum, but one M wrote the following which I thought was pertinent...<br /><br /><i>The tension between outside resources and internal resources will continue long after we are gone; but it behooves us to remember one important thing that Guy has implied in his most recent post: it is not a resource issue. It is an obedience issue. Jesus is Lord, which includes lordship over finances. Givers are to be obedient and give as directed. Receivers are required to be faithful stewards of what they have received...to declare those outside sources to be outside the harvest is, in my mostly meaningless opinion, unwise.</i><br /><br />In Wolfgang Simson's new "Starfish Manifesto" he spends a lot of time on Kingdom finances and how they are to be handled. It makes for some very interesting reading, but as I wrote elsewhere, "this kind of thinking is still ten years away from being accepted evangelical mainstream thinking." Basically he is for getting back to money being laid at the feet of the apostles (plural) and doing away with all the bureaucracy.<br /><br />Accountability structures have a lot to do with trusting the individuals/ministries that one is giving to. I find it encouraging that many out there are beginning to question the way finances are handled, and going back to Scripture for answers.J. Guy Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17751691713410311094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-90958875070934263492010-03-15T15:31:19.473-05:002010-03-15T15:31:19.473-05:00Guy,
Interesting post. You said, "If we beli...Guy,<br /><br />Interesting post. You said, "If we believe Jesus is truly King, we have to believe He will make sure money flows to where it needs to go." <br /><br />Are you proposing that each individual Christ-follower should give more directly to a person or cause, as the Holy Spirit leads, without any accountability to a body of believers?Tim Pattersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10768629404208079229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23191203.post-26422451940676089012010-03-15T10:27:49.341-05:002010-03-15T10:27:49.341-05:00Guy,
Very thought-provoking post. I agree with yo...Guy,<br /><br />Very thought-provoking post. I agree with you that the "unhealthy dependency" argument is pulled out too often and too indiscriminately. However, it seems to me that, in order to encourage reproducibility, and healthy church growth, it is best that local churches and pastors be encouraged, as much as possible, to be supported by those within their own congregation, or be bi-vocational. I see church planters, or those with a more apostolic ministry, as somewhat different, though.<br /><br />Another reality that all of us who have much experience in international missions know closely is that there are many individuals and ministries out there, especially in a lot of the two-thirds world, that are adept at working American individuals and churches for all the money they can get out of them. In the States, we have things like the ECFA in order to help ensure that the money we are giving really is given to those who are being good stewards with it. Overseas, however, that is often a lot more difficult to monitor. Also, well-intentioned Americans, who are not very familiar with some of the complex issues involved in international ministry, are often sitting ducks for emotional manipulation on the part of those who are experts at milking the cash cows, so to speak.<br /><br />I would agree that the same type of thing can, and does, occur in the US with US-based ministries, as well. But, as I say, at least we have some accountability structures, such as ECFA, to help with that. <br /><br />What I am arguing for, at the core, is not avoiding altogether subsidizing worthy causes and ministries overseas, but, rather, working to help set up better accountability structures, and encouraging national ministries to set up their own accountability structures. Of course, this is not as easily done as said. And, we run the risk of coming across as paternalistic and controlling when we encourage our national brethren this way. But, I think we all stand to profit (though not in a prosperity gospel sort of way) when we can learn to do things in such a way that the squeaky wheel doesn't always get all the oil, so to speak.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.com